Dominance - April 16, 2009

[2009/04/16 13:00] Tarl Field: Okay lets get started... smiles
[2009/04/16 13:01] Tarl Field: Todays subject is dominance which can be physical and mental
[2009/04/16 13:01] Tarl Field: I personally prefer a mix of the two

[2009/04/16 13:01] Tarl Field: To my help to demonstrate the physical part i have my girl melinda which is physically restrained
[2009/04/16 13:01] Tarl Field: Or had as she seemed to crash
[2009/04/16 13:02] Dionysos Ulrik: their goes youre dominance ...
[2009/04/16 13:02] Dionysos Ulrik smiles
[2009/04/16 13:02] Tarl Field: Any way the physical dominance is when you touch or restrain your sub with phyical strenght or physical restraints like rope or cuffs
[2009/04/16 13:02] Dionysos Ulrik: we cant beat the evil harse Masters of sl
[2009/04/16 13:02] Tarl Field: wb melinda)
[2009/04/16 13:03] Melinda Waffle nods
[2009/04/16 13:04] Tarl Field: Now besides how she is restrained what other ways of physical restraints can you think off
[2009/04/16 13:04] Dionysos Ulrik: blindfold
[2009/04/16 13:04] Lilystarre Darkstone: leather cuffs,Sir ,,,
[2009/04/16 13:04] Bastet Lyon: gag
[2009/04/16 13:04] Zeldan Blackburn: suspend
[2009/04/16 13:04] Tarl Field: all good
[2009/04/16 13:04] Dionysos Ulrik: ear mufflers
[2009/04/16 13:04] Tarl Field: ahh suspension is always fun
[2009/04/16 13:04] Lilystarre Darkstone: traditional hand cuffs as well
[2009/04/16 13:05] Tarl Field: ahh but make sure the handcuffs are doublelocked
[2009/04/16 13:05] Tarl Field: so they dont cut of the bloodflow by mistake
[2009/04/16 13:05] Lilystarre Darkstone: ahh,, yes Sir *smiles
[2009/04/16 13:05] Zeldan Blackburn: in rl pinch test
[2009/04/16 13:05] Zeldan Blackburn: the back of the hand
[2009/04/16 13:06] Tarl Field: Zelda thats a very correct and fast way to know
[2009/04/16 13:06] Tarl Field: But if your restrained as melinda is i cant check her hands
[2009/04/16 13:06] Zeldan Blackburn: nods
[2009/04/16 13:06] Tarl Field: I would have to ask her if her hands are going numb
[2009/04/16 13:06] Lilystarre Darkstone: nodding softly as she listens
[2009/04/16 13:06] Tarl Field: And trust she will tell me the truth
[2009/04/16 13:07] Tarl Field: Even if she is helpless in her restraint she can always get my attention and signal that she needs a brake
[2009/04/16 13:07] Tarl Field: break
[2009/04/16 13:08] Tarl Field: And as she does so i can do a few things. I can release her directly, or tease her by playing stupid and not understanding but that demands a lot of trust and a very good knowledge about how melinda works as a sub...
[2009/04/16 13:09] Tarl Field: And she knows very well that as my girl she has no rights as a sub...
[2009/04/16 13:09] Tarl Field: But in one way she has the total power
[2009/04/16 13:09] Tarl Field: Why?
[2009/04/16 13:09] Dionysos Ulrik: safeword
[2009/04/16 13:09] Tarl Field: true
[2009/04/16 13:09] Dionysos Ulrik: she decides how far you take her in the end
[2009/04/16 13:09] Lilystarre Darkstone: her submission itself,Sir
[2009/04/16 13:10] Tarl Field: both of you are right
[2009/04/16 13:10] Tarl Field: I can conrol her totally within the limits we agreed on when we started...
[2009/04/16 13:10] Lilystarre Darkstone smiles** because without giving You the gift of her submission, You cannot Dominate to begin with,Sir,, *soft soft smile
[2009/04/16 13:11] Tarl Field removes melindas gag but whispers that she is not allowed to speak
[2009/04/16 13:11] Tarl Field: very true
[2009/04/16 13:11] Tarl Field: And one of the biggest gifts you can recive is just that her submission
[2009/04/16 13:11] Dionysos Ulrik nods
[2009/04/16 13:11] Tarl Field: But with that comes a lot of trust that i wont miss use her trust
[2009/04/16 13:12] Lilystarre Darkstone: ,,,, and it is a gift Sir (something that "wanna be" Doms tend to over look *smiles*
[2009/04/16 13:12] Tarl Field: now as you saw i ungagged her and told her not to speak
[2009/04/16 13:12] Tarl Field: thats a mental dominantion
[2009/04/16 13:13] Tarl Field: She could have said thank you Master and then be silent but she knows what i expect of her
[2009/04/16 13:14] Tarl Field: Now to return to the physical dominance a part from the restraints she is wearing i can hold her hair and make her kneel and even restrain her more
[2009/04/16 13:14] Tarl Field: But would she remain in one place even if she was not restrained and only ordered to wait laying spread out in the bed.
[2009/04/16 13:14] Tarl Field: And melinda you may speak now...
[2009/04/16 13:15] Melinda Waffle: thx master
[2009/04/16 13:15] Melinda Waffle: hi all
[2009/04/16 13:15] Lovlee Destiny: **smiles**
[2009/04/16 13:15] Dionysos Ulrik smiles to melinda
[2009/04/16 13:15] Tarl Field: so which do you think effects a submissive the most a physical dominantion or a mental?
[2009/04/16 13:16] Dionysos Ulrik: mental in the end
[2009/04/16 13:16] Lovlee Destiny: mental
[2009/04/16 13:16] STEFANY Stipe bows head "the mental sir"
[2009/04/16 13:16] Lilystarre Darkstone whispers,agreeing* the mental aspect Sir
[2009/04/16 13:16] Tarl Field: It would seam all are going for the mental side
[2009/04/16 13:16] nova Coba: Depends on where you are playing RL or SL and the players.
[2009/04/16 13:16] Killian Sandalwood: mental
[2009/04/16 13:16] Tarl Field: Nova in both aspects.... smiles
[2009/04/16 13:17] Tarl Field: Why do you think the mental part is so important
[2009/04/16 13:17] Lovlee Destiny: because mental is completly bu choice
[2009/04/16 13:17] Killian Sandalwood: but depends on how slave is conditioned
[2009/04/16 13:17] STEFANY Stipe: mental is pure commitment sir
[2009/04/16 13:17] Zeldan Blackburn: nods but mental depends on complete honesty from the sub they have to let you inside their head
[2009/04/16 13:17] Tarl Field: A very good point Killian
[2009/04/16 13:17] Lovlee Destiny: physical u are constricted... mental is aompletly by desire
[2009/04/16 13:18] Tarl Field: And very true
[2009/04/16 13:18] Dionysos Ulrik: in cufs you have no choice to stay in that posiotion . mental cuffs you are youre own prisioner and guard
[2009/04/16 13:18] Tarl Field: The trust most be complete in a bdsm relationship
[2009/04/16 13:18] Tarl Field: Now for an example
[2009/04/16 13:18] Lilystarre Darkstone whispers* nodding as she agrees* t's a matter of committment and devotion,Sir --again, much Trust is at issue as well
[2009/04/16 13:18] Tarl Field: I tell melinda to lay in bed dressed in say her bodystocking
[2009/04/16 13:19] Killian Sandalwood: but some of that desire comes from how the Dom has conditioned the slave
[2009/04/16 13:19] Tarl Field: BUt she hears something that would indicate say a waterleak.
[2009/04/16 13:19] Tarl Field: should she go up and check and call for help or fix it herself and lay back and wait.
[2009/04/16 13:20] Lilystarre Darkstone: she should wait,Sir
[2009/04/16 13:20] Tarl Field: and tell me what happend when i come home
[2009/04/16 13:20] Dionysos Ulrik: call for help i supose
[2009/04/16 13:20] Kaddan Yue: call for help it might endanger her
[2009/04/16 13:20] STEFANY Stipe: call for help sir?
[2009/04/16 13:20] nova Coba: No I would take care of it, and take my punishment when master came home.
[2009/04/16 13:20] Lovlee Destiny: depends on the relationship and knowing the Dom it would be a personal choice
[2009/04/16 13:20] Tarl Field: Actually thats up to every dominant to decied how he or she wants their sub
[2009/04/16 13:20] Killian Sandalwood: try to please you by fixing then wait and tell you when you arive home
[2009/04/16 13:21] Tarl Field: I think melinda knows me well enough to answer how i would want her to act
[2009/04/16 13:21] Melinda Waffle: i think i should have a look
[2009/04/16 13:21] Melinda Waffle: some things are more important
[2009/04/16 13:21] Lilystarre Darkstone whispers* were it herself, she would make an effort to reach You,say by phone to alert You to the situation and to see what You have her do,,Sir
[2009/04/16 13:21] Tarl Field: lily thats also a way to do it
[2009/04/16 13:22] Tarl Field: As you contact the dom to inform whats happend and asking instructions...
[2009/04/16 13:22] Tarl Field: Both ways would have been allowed under me
[2009/04/16 13:22] Lilystarre Darkstone nods softly,thoughtfully* yes SIr
[2009/04/16 13:22] Tarl Field: As a waterleak can grow big in a short time if your unlucky
[2009/04/16 13:23] Tarl Field: And of course if the house caught on fire i would not expect her to wait in the flames
[2009/04/16 13:23] Lovlee Destiny: **smiles**
[2009/04/16 13:23] Melinda Waffle: omg
[2009/04/16 13:23] Dionysos Ulrik: now is a waterleak something that dont happen likey . but the doorbel or so . is to be ignored i find
[2009/04/16 13:23] Ge Hermans: at least the waterleak will come in handy when its on fire
[2009/04/16 13:23] Tarl Field: well melinda some might expect their subs to wait no matter what
[2009/04/16 13:23] Melinda Waffle: Dont meet trouble halfway master
[2009/04/16 13:24] Tarl Field: No melinda knowing you as i do i know you would try and put the fire out...
[2009/04/16 13:24] Melinda Waffle nods
[2009/04/16 13:24] Melinda Waffle: but better no fire at all
[2009/04/16 13:24] Melinda Waffle: and no water leak
[2009/04/16 13:24] Tarl Field: But thats the point dominance is not just commanding and obeying
[2009/04/16 13:25] Tarl Field: You need to adjust to the sub you have..
[2009/04/16 13:25] Killian Sandalwood: that is so very true
[2009/04/16 13:25] Dionysos Ulrik: its always about the variables, things that you dont aspect
[2009/04/16 13:25] Tarl Field: Now just for fun would you call it a mental dominantion to make a sub to say wear a short skirt without underwear
[2009/04/16 13:26] Lilystarre Darkstone nods softly* yes,,, and being prepared for contingencies as well *soft smile
[2009/04/16 13:26] Dionysos Ulrik: in a way yes
[2009/04/16 13:26] Lilystarre Darkstone: in a manner of speaking, yes Sir
[2009/04/16 13:26] Lovlee Destiny: I think that would be...
[2009/04/16 13:26] Lovlee Destiny: she is trying to please you
[2009/04/16 13:26] Killian Sandalwood: if she is the shy type to expose her body in public --- yes
[2009/04/16 13:27] Lilystarre Darkstone: or she has been issued a directive,prohibiting the wearing of underwear,,,
[2009/04/16 13:27] Tarl Field: Your all correct.... smiles
[2009/04/16 13:28] Melinda Waffle: sorry all rl calls for me
[2009/04/16 13:28] Tarl Field: its amental control as she can choose to ignore it and i would accept that under some set oif events....
[2009/04/16 13:28] Melinda Waffle: whish you all a good lesson
[2009/04/16 13:28] Dionysos Ulrik: take care melinda
[2009/04/16 13:28] Melinda gives Tarl a sweet kiss.
[2009/04/16 13:28] Melinda Waffle: mmmmmmmmmm
[2009/04/16 13:28] Tarl Field: take care my girl
[2009/04/16 13:28] Melinda Waffle: thx master
[2009/04/16 13:28] Melinda Waffle: take care also
[2009/04/16 13:29] Lovlee Destiny: bye melinda
[2009/04/16 13:29] Melinda Waffle waves
[2009/04/16 13:30] Tarl Field: Now as you see she has to leave and i accept that and release er even if i could have kept her locked up.
[2009/04/16 13:30] Tarl Field: I know the most important restraint is not visable
[2009/04/16 13:31] Tarl Field: Its inside her and around her heart...
[2009/04/16 13:31] Melinda Waffle waves again
[2009/04/16 13:31] Melinda Waffle: bye all
[2009/04/16 13:31] Dionysos Ulrik: bye melinda
[2009/04/16 13:31] Lilystarre Darkstone: ... her desire to serve *soft smile
[2009/04/16 13:31] STEFANY Stipe: gb melinda
[2009/04/16 13:32] Tarl Field: And if you have any questions so far let me know
[2009/04/16 13:32] Dionysos Ulrik shakes his head
[2009/04/16 13:32] Lovlee Destiny: **smiles**
[2009/04/16 13:33] Tarl Field: Let me ask you this which is the most important part in dominance
[2009/04/16 13:33] Tarl Field: Physical or mental
[2009/04/16 13:33] Lilystarre Darkstone softly shakes her head,her eyes shimmering softly
[2009/04/16 13:33] Lovlee Destiny: mental
[2009/04/16 13:34] Bastet Lyon: mental
[2009/04/16 13:34] STEFANY Stipe: mental sir
[2009/04/16 13:34] Dionysos Ulrik: mental as well
[2009/04/16 13:34] STEFANY Stipe: mental involves more trust and commitment sir
[2009/04/16 13:34] Lovlee Destiny: Mental is pure desire to please...
[2009/04/16 13:34] Lilystarre Darkstone: she would think the mental,Sir -- nodding,agreeing*
[2009/04/16 13:34] Tarl Field: Agree so why is there a physical aspect to it if it seems like the mental part is the most important part
[2009/04/16 13:35] Dionysos Ulrik: sometimes to focus more one a certain bodypart
[2009/04/16 13:35] Killian Sandalwood: physical re-enforces the mental
[2009/04/16 13:35] nova Coba: It doubles the input to the brain.
[2009/04/16 13:35] STEFANY Stipe: the psycial ties in with the mental..without mental there is no psycial sir
[2009/04/16 13:35] Lilystarre Darkstone: as a physical reminder, Sir,,,of the sub/slaves place
[2009/04/16 13:35] Lovlee Destiny: Physical is outward proof to every one,
[2009/04/16 13:35] Leesa Back: the physical to a submissive / slave can be used to enforce the mental.
[2009/04/16 13:35] Tarl Field: two good points
[2009/04/16 13:35] Dionysos Ulrik: it helps a sub also to concetrate better
[2009/04/16 13:36] Tarl Field: without mental there is no physical and the physical is a proof to the outside world
[2009/04/16 13:36] Tarl Field: Lets break the first one down
[2009/04/16 13:36] Sylestra Parkin is Online
[2009/04/16 13:36] Tarl Field: For things to become physical you need trust and not just the trust you feel for a girlfriend or boyfriend
[2009/04/16 13:37] Tarl Field: But a much deeper trust as you willb e laying your life in the hand of some one else
[2009/04/16 13:37] Dionysos Ulrik nods
[2009/04/16 13:37] Lilystarre Darkstone: nodding as she listens
[2009/04/16 13:37] Tarl Field: And thats the mental part allowing some one to take control of you mentally
[2009/04/16 13:38] Tarl Field: And once you reach the stage that you trust each other fully you can start playing in the physical area...
[2009/04/16 13:38] Lilystarre Darkstone lifts her hand, a little shyly,,,
[2009/04/16 13:38] Tarl Field: Lily?
[2009/04/16 13:39] Dionysos Ulrik looks to lily if she was asking for a toiletbreak
[2009/04/16 13:40] Lilystarre Darkstone smiles,whispers* she agrees and understands that Your belief is mental trust preceeds physical trust,,, -- for this reason, one of her most strident and hard limits states that for no reason,shall she be bound in any fashion during a "first Meet" scene,,,
[2009/04/16 13:40] Tarl Field: Lily a very good rule actually
[2009/04/16 13:40] Lilystarre Darkstone: very very importrant to her own sense of safety, Sir
[2009/04/16 13:41] Tarl Field: It might surprise you lily that i usually dont tie some one up in a club unless i know them a little before hand...
[2009/04/16 13:41] Lilystarre Darkstone: and if He (the Dom) objects,,well,,, He knows where the door is SIr (respectfully, of course**
[2009/04/16 13:41] Bastet Lyon: i second lilys rule
[2009/04/16 13:41] Bastet Lyon: one i follow stricktly
[2009/04/16 13:42] Lilystarre Darkstone: ohh yes Sir,, *nods softly* she has RL Friends who play regularly in such a club ,,, and He would agree with You Sir
[2009/04/16 13:42] Tarl Field: Actually lily if a dom cant accept your rule you have no need to tell them to get lost in a nice manner how ever it looks better if you do...
[2009/04/16 13:42] Lilystarre Darkstone smiles to Bastet** thank You,,, smiles
[2009/04/16 13:42] Bastet Lyon: be safe first
[2009/04/16 13:42] Bastet Lyon: that is number one rule
[2009/04/16 13:42] Dionysos Ulrik nods
[2009/04/16 13:42] Tarl Field: Thats why the saying in bdsm goes safe, sane and consentual
[2009/04/16 13:43] Killian Sandalwood: SSC
[2009/04/16 13:43] Tarl Field: How ever if you know the girl you can scare them a little
[2009/04/16 13:43] Lilystarre Darkstone whispers* she wanted to ask You Sir ,,, are You familiar with RACK?
[2009/04/16 13:43] Tarl Field: Risk assesment
[2009/04/16 13:43] Tarl Field: i forget the rest
[2009/04/16 13:43] Killian Sandalwood: risk accepted consentual kink
[2009/04/16 13:43] Lilystarre Darkstone: yes,,, Consentual Kink,,she thinks
[2009/04/16 13:43] Bastet Lyon: actually before i allow my self to be dommed i watch him carefully for a good while to see how his decisio making and his responsibility levels are
[2009/04/16 13:43] Lilystarre Darkstone: laughing soflty
[2009/04/16 13:43] Tarl Field: right
[2009/04/16 13:44] Tarl Field: But they do mean basically the same
[2009/04/16 13:44] Bastet Lyon: does he anger easily
[2009/04/16 13:44] Bastet Lyon: how does he prioritize
[2009/04/16 13:44] Killian Sandalwood: the second being a bit more edge than the first
[2009/04/16 13:44] Bastet Lyon: does he get jealous that sort of thing
[2009/04/16 13:44] Lilystarre Darkstone listens quietly to Bastet ,, nodding
[2009/04/16 13:44] Tarl Field: A good way of doing things bastet
[2009/04/16 13:45] Tarl Field: How ever we al know that sometimes we just feel a natural trust even after a short meeting
[2009/04/16 13:45] Tarl Field: It cant be explained its just there sometimes
[2009/04/16 13:45] Lilystarre Darkstone smiles softly, nodding with memory
[2009/04/16 13:45] Bastet Lyon: true the "gut" feeling
[2009/04/16 13:45] Dionysos Ulrik: thats a nice thing . but you can also be tricked at that by the other party
[2009/04/16 13:46] Tarl Field: How ever doing it that way does pose some intresting questions
[2009/04/16 13:46] Bastet Lyon: thats my first cue then i start the observing
[2009/04/16 13:46] Adenah Handayani is Offline
[2009/04/16 13:46] Bastet Lyon: i always follow my rules to keep me safe
[2009/04/16 13:46] Bastet Lyon: gut feelings or not
[2009/04/16 13:46] Tarl Field: If you get a gut feeling you need to build that on facts before doing something more serious...
[2009/04/16 13:46] Dionysos Ulrik: very wise bastet
[2009/04/16 13:46] Lovlee Destiny: gut feelings can be misleading soetimes.... ;(
[2009/04/16 13:47] Bastet Lyon: agreed
[2009/04/16 13:47] Lovlee Destiny: like a kick in the gut
[2009/04/16 13:47] Lovlee Destiny: **smiles**
[2009/04/16 13:47] Tarl Field: Som dominants are very good at showing a very nice outer side
[2009/04/16 13:47] Tarl Field: some
[2009/04/16 13:47] Tarl Field: Sorry think i got sidetracked into safety as always
[2009/04/16 13:48] nova Coba raises hand
[2009/04/16 13:48] Tarl Field: No matter if your the dom or the sub in a dominant relationship safety always comes first
[2009/04/16 13:48] Tarl Field: Nova?
[2009/04/16 13:48] nova Coba: I have Sir witnesses at private play parties some very tough slaves take some high levels of pain play (the triple zipper witnesses still in my mind.) Obviously for those players pain is an important part of the play.
[2009/04/16 13:48] Lovlee Destiny: Some tend me be quite loving and caring a generous, then when u wear the collar then get sidetracked, and u seem to be less important.. what do u do then?
[2009/04/16 13:49] Tarl Field: True for some pain is their wau of getting the release of the endorfines that makes them feel good
[2009/04/16 13:49] Tarl Field: Now when it comes to pain its a paradox
[2009/04/16 13:50] Dionysos Ulrik: i believe a lot of parties and clubs are more about lust then the beauty that submission can be for e D
[2009/04/16 13:50] Dionysos Ulrik: e=a
[2009/04/16 13:50] Tarl Field: Pain will release adranelin and endorfines which is the body´s chemicals to make you feel good...
[2009/04/16 13:50] Tarl Field: dion i agree
[2009/04/16 13:51] Tarl Field: In the club its about showing of your sub...
[2009/04/16 13:52] Tarl Field: But a club is also a good way to get to know a dom if he or she is a member in that club
[2009/04/16 13:52] Bastet Lyon: to me it seems like a power play between the doms
[2009/04/16 13:52] Tarl Field: As you will get a lot of info about the person from his or her friends
[2009/04/16 13:52] Dionysos Ulrik nods and sighs
[2009/04/16 13:53] Tarl Field: i will tell you about what happend to me when i went to a club with my girlfriend at that time
[2009/04/16 13:53] Lilystarre Darkstone: perhaps as well from that One's sub/slave as well
[2009/04/16 13:53] Lilystarre Darkstone: smiles
[2009/04/16 13:53] STEFANY Stipe raises hand quietly
[2009/04/16 13:53] Tarl Field: I went with her and gave a our common friend a ride to the party
[2009/04/16 13:53] Tarl Field: Stefany?
[2009/04/16 13:53] STEFANY Stipe: when it comes to something your master wants you to do but ur not comfortable with but you want to please him..
[2009/04/16 13:53] STEFANY Stipe: what should you do?
[2009/04/16 13:54] Tarl Field: Stefany can you give me a more exact example?
[2009/04/16 13:54] STEFANY Stipe: like walking around outside fully naked sir
[2009/04/16 13:56] Tarl Field: well thats not so bad the big problem with that is that one: you will risk getting arrested, two if you feel its to much for you remember this if your dom truelly cares you can get him or her to understand and respect it. How ever you might get a spanking for not doing as told...
[2009/04/16 13:56] STEFANY Stipe: understood sir ...thank you
[2009/04/16 13:56] Dionysos Ulrik: back to youre story pleae Tarl
[2009/04/16 13:56] Tarl Field: Now since i came with two girls some doms looked at me with envy
[2009/04/16 13:57] Tarl Field: But iw as there to go with my gf and i also acted as a safetrope for our friend
[2009/04/16 13:57] Dionysos Ulrik nods
[2009/04/16 13:57] Tarl Field: She was visitng the club for the first time
[2009/04/16 13:58] Tarl Field: So of course i wanted her to have fun without getting hazzeled by other single doms
[2009/04/16 13:58] Tarl Field: Now here is the fun part i some how ended up being 2 other subs safetylines
[2009/04/16 13:58] Tarl Field: and one of those subs was a guy...lol
[2009/04/16 13:58] Lovlee Destiny: **smiles**
[2009/04/16 13:58] nova Coba: :) Not umcommon
[2009/04/16 13:59] Dionysos Ulrik: first time in a club can be scary . even for a D
[2009/04/16 13:59] Sammi Loire is Online
[2009/04/16 13:59] Tarl Field: Now i am not into guys but he asked in a way that i could not say no and tiold him i would be his help if he needed it
[2009/04/16 14:00] Tarl Field: Now this was a good club and all respected each other but i would have interacted to stop anything that would risk hurting the one i was protecting
[2009/04/16 14:00] Tarl Field: Although the girl thatw as with me and my gf was not all that happy with me... grins
[2009/04/16 14:00] nova Coba: TY for the clas
[2009/04/16 14:00] Tarl Field: But that was her own fault she asked me to lace her corset tightly...laugh
[2009/04/16 14:01] Dionysos Ulrik grins
[2009/04/16 14:01] Tarl Field: And your welcome nova
[2009/04/16 14:01] Tarl Field: And thank you all for coming
[2009/04/16 14:01] Dionysos Ulrik: thank you Tarl . i love these classes
[2009/04/16 14:01] Tarl Field: this will be posted when its cleaned up